Kingdom Building: It's Christ who builds - with Marcy Nary

My conversations with my friend and mentor, Marcy Nary, are always my favorites. She has a depth of revelation and knowledge of spiritual matters that only comes from a life devoted to the intimate, private, secret place of the Lord. 

Scott and Marcy Nary are founders of 420Fire International and strong prophetic voices charged with training and equipping the body of Christ to discern, follow, and obey the voice of the Lord for themselves. You can learn more about their ministry at 420fire.org

In this episode, we talk through what happens when God’s call is bigger than our capacity and why repeated confirmation can keep us steady over years. We also get honest about coming to the end of our own grace, laying down our savior complex, and choosing real intimacy with God over routines that only look spiritual. 

If it's "real" you want, this episode is for you!

Transcript

Welcome Back And Why We Talk

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Vine Life. This is Gina. And I've got Marcy with me today. We used to do a podcast like three years ago? Yeah, I think so. And in that podcast, we would just come together and just start to talk about whatever. It was kind of a whatever podcast. And so we didn't really have a a topic and everything. And I did have something in mind as to to where to go with that, but I I really feel like in uh I guess respect for the past and and even Scott's word that says that old things are new and all of that kind of thing, that that will kind of flow in that um kind of unknowing and just focus on talking about the Lord. So I feel like everybody who who would listen to this would know you, Marcy, but if you don't mind just kind of giving a quick just overview of just who you are and what you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Um well I'm Marcy Neri. I'm Scott's wife. And um I help him out the best way I know how. And sometimes that's that's uh that's hit and miss, but um, yeah, you know, he we we um founded 420 Fire and International and so um that kind of started in Canada at at its grassroots effort really, with just kind of feeling our way through the dark as to why we were there and what we needed to be doing while we were there. Um but anyway, out of out of that, you know, we moved back to um America and then kind of took what took off in Canada and and brought it here and lo and behold 425 was was birthed.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

And that's that's about the time I met, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It I think uh Scott had the visitation from the Lord in 2018. And I think that's whenever he first came out to one of our meetings. But uh now we had already been uh meeting prior to that, but um it kind of that that it encounter kind of Oh it exploded after kind of gave us direction for like growing across the nation. And what what was really funny about that though was the fact that it shouldn't have I mean even though it

How 425 International Began

SPEAKER_02 2:40

was anytime that somebody s sees Jesus, you know, it it it's it's a surprise. It takes you it's a it takes you off guard. Like I've I've never seen him in the flesh, I've seen him in the spirit, but but um anyway the move of 425 International, so to say, was actually prophesied to us first in Canada.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

That blows my mind too. Yeah, looking back. I love prophecy because sometimes you don't recognize the even the importance of it until you look back.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

But yeah, the the very first time and we've had the same prophecy spoken over us, um gosh, I couldn't tell you how many times now, multiple times. Um almost, I I dare I I would dare to say almost word for word what was said in at first given to us in Canada um by a lady named Catherine Welland. But um athlete actually I don't think Catherine Catherine Catherine's last name isn't Welland anymore. She she's since married. Um but anyway, um since then we've had that same prophecy given to us um m in multiple places by peop multiple different people who did not there was no way that they could know each other. They were in separate they were in different states. So anyway, um to see the fulfillment of that come to pass, you know, it's one thing to receive a prophetic word, and you know, you know what they're saying, but you don't necessarily comprehend the fullness of it. Um but the Lord it it has come to pass and um hopefully will continue to come to pass.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

So so what do you think about because you said you got multiple words that said the same thing. So what do you think that the importance of that is?

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Um well you know, I know for me the very first prophetic words that I ever received were confirmation of what I had already heard myself. These were things that the Lord had already spoke specifically to my heart, and then other people would come along and give me a prophetic word, and it would actually confirm what I'd already heard. I up until that point, I had not received to my knowledge that I can remember. Let me preface it by that, because the Lord can always always you know reveal something that oh no, this was a prophetic word, you know. But to my knowledge, to what I can remember, um I I hadn't received a prophetic word that didn't already confirm something that I had heard from the Lord myself.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Okay, yeah, so this was the first.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

So this was this was among the first. I don't know if it was the first, right, but you recognize it. But I I did recognize that this was something new, that this was something that was on the Lord's heart that I had not heard before, and this was outside of me personally, this was something bigger, right? This was,

Why Repeated Prophecy Matters

SPEAKER_02 5:50

and so I think because of the magnitude of what the Lord was asking us to do, and the fact that this was new to me that I will say for me, my personal, I don't know, I Scott could tell you what it meant for him personally, but for me personally, I think I needed multiple comp uh confirmations through people who didn't know right um so that I could fully believe.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

That that that makes so much sense because it it hasn't been easy to to steward that thing, has it?

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Oh no, no, it hasn't been easy at all. I mean, you during the process of it all, um like the Lord the Lord uses imperfect vessels. And all he needs is a yes. He doesn't need perfection, he doesn't need full maturity. Thank God. He doesn't need somebody who knows the fullness of of all that there is to know about what he's asking them to do, he doesn't need someone like all he needs is a yes, and so you know, and I can say this in retrospect. If you would have asked me that when we first started out, I would have had a completely different answer. But in retrospect, and looking back at all that Scott and I have been through personally and seeing the mistakes, seeing the growth, seeing the perseverance, seeing the things that it actually uncovered in our own hearts that we didn't really even realize wasn't even on our radar as to these are things that are in there that could pop up that could actually ambush you. Um and yet the Lord be so faithful in all of it to to not only correct but to also not let it fall right because of imperfect vessels.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Right, but but it was it was his word, it was his word, so it's not gonna fail, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Yeah, right, and that's his faithfulness to it. Right, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, yes, of course.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Such a partnership, yeah like it whenever I think about just man and God working together, it just it it blows my mind because we think, I mean, I'm sure you guys have experienced that, but just thinking that, oh, we're doing this for the Lord, right? And then realizing how much growth, you know, that he brought through this thing that you thought you were doing for him, that he was actually doing for you.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yeah, you know, yeah, and I do I really do believe that every yes that we give to the Lord, not only is it for his plan and his purpose, but it's also for our hearts. Because there are things in our hearts that that will own like transformation only come will only come through you know the the pressing and the crushing and the beholding.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

And let the the the releasing and the surrender. And it's and it it comes at it, you know, it can be very scary to actually step into those things that the Lord is asking you to do because you you know you think you we think we know our shortcomings and we think we know our weaknesses, or we could be extremely confident and think we know, oh I got this, I can do this. And I as soon I the biggest the I think one of the biggest lessons I have learned is that anytime that I think, oh that I that's easy, I can do that, or oh yeah, I got this, it is actually the Lord asking me to do something in order to reveal to me that you that no, you actually can't. These are all the ways in which you know you think that you are um succeeding, but is that is not what I call success.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Yes. Well, and even you know, just in just in my own life, just to add to that, you know, I mean, we've talked about the fact that like I had this whole experience with the Lord where he was like, Well, you see, so you think you know. And it's such a I mean, like, it's it's an admonishment, it's a correction, it's a hey, like, vision doesn't mean anything without me. You know, it's the same thing. He's continually showing us his glory, and he's continually like humbling us at the same, which actually works together. Like you see how how faithful he is, it uncovers how unfaithful you are, but at the same time you're like, but he covers me, and it's just it draws you closer. But it's such a like humility, it's just humility, birth is humility to see him take these these broken, you know, dirty vessels, what you think about yourself, and he just pours himself into it, and then he flows through you, and you're like, Oh, but I messed up back there. And he's like, It's all right, I knew you would. I already, I already wrote that in there, you know, already, already made the the way for that, and you're just like, Oh my gosh, like how who can stand before the Lord? Right, like that's what that is, and you know, I always thought like we can't stand before the Lord for this reason or that reason, but it's it's really like it's the understanding of his his greatness, his glory, like who can stand before

Imperfect Vessels And God’s Faithfulness

SPEAKER_00 11:50

the Lord? Right. You know, there is self-righteousness is dead in front of him. There is none.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

None. I mean none. No, none. I think just to just to bring it up to there I have so many stories, but I think the just to bring it up to date to the most recent, um there's this there's a certain thing in my life I've been dealing with for the last several years, it'll get better, then it'll go back, then it'll get better, then it'll go back. It's just like teeter, totter, teeter, totter, teeter, totter. And um really thought that it had come to a and I call it it. It had come to a place to where, okay, you know, it's finally, we finally went over and we've overcome and and now it's just, you know, it's just gonna be a matter of a gradual just getting better and better and better from here on out. And no, it went right back to um probably worse than square one at this point. And you know, I it's so easy to be in those things and you know, you give your you give of yourself and you give of yourself and you give of yourself and um it's and whenever it it you know it takes a die for the worst, it's it's really easy to say just to throw up your hands and say, Okay, you know what? The grace has lifted. Yeah, yeah. You know, the grace has lifted. And I was at that point, you know, and and this circuit cer this s situation I'm talking about involves a certain someone. And um I'm thinking uh and I was like, you know, I I I really I did I did feel a shift. I did feel a shift and I just because of my own frustration, hurt, anger, um, you know, my my conclusion to the shift that I felt it was, well, the grace is lifted and I am done. And but at the same time, because my heart is so intertwined, yeah, you know, how do you how do you how do you just walk away and you know the grace is lifted, I'm done. You know, how do you do that? And so I was very torn and just I decided to talk to the Lord about it, believe it or not. Um I can't imagine that. Um and so whenever I inquired of the Lord and He's he he said um He said, Well, you know, where sin abounds, grace does much more abound.

When Your Grace Ends

SPEAKER_02 14:45

And I'm like, Yeah. But doesn't the grace lift? And he's like, Well, you know, you've just been brought to the end of your own grace. You've been brought to the end of your own. Yeah, it's just the time to wing into mine.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Because then you have to have faith. And you have to go by faith instead of seeing, feeling, tasting.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah, and then and then you know, there was just this whole this whole discourse of are my mercies not new every morning? And how how wide, how deep is the love, is my love. You know, all this stuff, and and um it was, you know, I I I but the thing about it is, you know, in that moment, as I'm hearing the Lord speak to my heart, you know, there was there was such there was there was such um sorry, the dog the dogs are giving the the the FedEx guy a welcome. We're watching him come up the right driveway. Um anyway, um in the in in in hearing all that there was such a renewed sense of hope. That's so good. So can you why do you think that is? Because I was no longer looking at the situation and my frustration. I was looking at the Lord and his heart.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

So his heart for that person.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Just who the Lord is, who the Lord is, period. Yeah. I mean, you you can't separate God, you can't separate who God is from what he does. That's good. His what he does perfectly aligns with who he is, and anytime that you see the Lord doing something, you have to recognize that's not just his action, that is who he is, and he will never divert from that.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

That is who he is. Now, we in saying that, you know, it's the goodness of God that brings men to repentance. And we automatically think goodness is all things that make us feel good, all things that seem good, all things that make make us recognize his goodness, you know, what we see is good. But it's also the goodness of God that will allow somebody to suffer the consequences of their sin in order to bring them to repentance. Right. Because there has at some point there has to be repentance. Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

So that makes a picture of the prodigal.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Yes, yes. That was the goodness of God that allowed him to go to the to the pig pen. That was his goodness. So, you know, it's it's it's not always our definition of God's mercy, his goodness, his grace, but it's God, I know that you're you're merciful. I know you're gracious. So if I'm not seeing it, I need you to show it to me.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

And how you're seeing it. And our thoughts and our sight and our even our feelings align with what he says and and who he is. And it's in in I've all every time, every single time without fail that the Lord has done this for me, it has brought a renewed hope, a renewed strength, and just a a bigger understanding of who he is.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

And as as you said that, what I saw was the burden of that thing falling off of it.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And the shift, I can tell you, like the shift that I felt.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

The shift wasn't so much that God's grace had lifted and it was time to for me to move on, but it was the the position that I have held in this situation is now taken a step back.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

And still being there. Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

But from but from the from the vantage point of letting like covering in prayer and letting, just like the Lord does, letting letting the sin drag the person to the throne room of heaven. Ugh.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

And as right before the throne of God. And as you say that, I see how that's also the same for the situation in my life. You know, and and like you can war with that thing because you want to save them. You do want, and and the Lord has really put me back and like given me the understanding recently, you know, that that I have a savior complex. You know, and like how and not that I not that I do anymore because

Savior Complex Versus Real Love

SPEAKER_00 20:20

he's he's the reason I can see it is because he's bringing me out of it. But like I was what I do is I I run after and I try to like encourage and build and like, you know, use my giftings to make people see what I see so that they don't do what they're not supposed to do and all this kind of stuff, and and it's like, aren't you tired? You know, it's that it's that still small voice of of like, aren't you aren't you tired of trying to play my role?

SPEAKER_02 20:52

And you don't even realize no, no, because you were doing it. No, no, you d you don't. I I think at at some point and I think I I think that everybody, whether they're aware of it or not, yeah, everybody has that because I mean if you care about somebody, of course, you want to save them. Yeah, you know, you want to help them. Yeah, you want to. And I'm not saying that we can't ever help people, because absolutely we can. But you have to know when you're helping and when you're actually enabling. Yes. And that is a very fine line. It it is a very fine line. And you know, that well, just like you said, it it it comes from a you know, a a savior complex.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

We we we we want to save people and you know Well, and if you look at the tradition of the church, we've been mandated to save people, you know, and it's but it's it's we we Twisted it and we've made it about us.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Instead of about Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yep. And you know, for myself, well, and I think anytime you start to get into that savior complex, you're actually, you know, trying to martyr yourself for someone else. And so you literally, quite literally, are trying to take the place of Christ in their life. Yeah. And it's so, oh my gosh. Like when you put it into that perspective, that you're what you're basically doing is saying, Jesus, what you did for this person is not enough. You're sacrificing. Like they're not getting it. So I'm just gonna, I'm gonna forsake my life for them and follow my sword for them. It's it's self-righteousness. You know, at the peak of pride. It's pride. Yeah. You know, thinking that you can do something better than the Lord can. And I don't, I don't mean to let me walk it back a second, because I don't I don't mean to to make that sound condemning or to come across as critical because that's not the heart of it. The heart of it is we know not what we do. And we don't know how to love people. We don't know how to love people without God. And so sometimes love looks like taking your hands off. Yes. You know, sometimes love looks like walking alongside and picking up again. Sometimes but we have to have the Lord to have that balance. We have to have Holy Spirit and be submitted to what He said outside of our feelings and our emotions and recognize that that He is the truth. Right. And and you know, you have to honor people's choices. Well, yeah. I like He showed me one time that I was trying to drag people to the cross, and I was like, Aren't we supposed to? I mean, even the the Lord drags no one.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

No, he He gives you a choice. Today I sent before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose this day life. Right. And it it he honors our choices. And who are we to like, you know, who are we to to force anybody if even the Lord honors people's choices?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Well, and you know, even looking, you know, that brings to mind some people that I know that have gone through some really dark times and their testimony is I'm thankful for it.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Yes, me too. Like how many times? Right. I mean, peop person after person after person. And when you get on the other side of it, like and it you know, even even the Lord uses all of it for his glory because they'll tell you had I not gone through that, I wouldn't know the Lord the way I do now. You know, and it's it's a beautiful thing to behold.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Well and and we can't be the author of someone else's testimony. No. No.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

No. But anyway, you know, going back, like that's probably the the most recent thing that actually pertains to what what we're kind of talking about here, but I've got so many, so many times that the Lord's done that for me, and and um I think that that that is actually a place where he's inviting the church, the whole the whole body of Christ to right now is to actually align with with what he's saying, what he's seeing, and what he's doing. Because there's there's so much going on right now that in our own self-righteousness, we we can think we we know the ways of the Lord. Right. And what we are feeling and what we are seeing and what we are hearing and what we are doing about what's actually going on is in line with the Father's heart, and it actually is not. And um it's it's really it's really sad, but I do believe that there is an invitation that is out there, and some may not be aware of it, but for those who aren't aware, they will be that you know this is you know your you're you have an invitation to come and and really lay down everything that you think you know and ask me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

He's bringing the church to the end of itself, so that that the individual can have the relationship with him because it's all it's it's part by part that comes together, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Bone by bone, yeah, yeah, ligament, joints, yes, all of that. And so for those that actually, you know, humble themselves and take take that uh take that invitation, I think that a lot of people will be surprised at how what they thought was the Lord really wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

And that I mean that takes humility to oh absolutely, you know, to to acknowledge and to to even share, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Yeah, absolutely. Yep. And it's it's

Come Up Here And See Differently

SPEAKER_02 27:40

you know, I I ha I had a vision, gosh, I guess it was a couple years ago now. It doesn't it seems like it was just yesterday, and it was an it was an open vision. Um I was actually in my truck driving and in my mind's eye, just out of the blue, all of a sudden I seen um I seen a a division. I seen I seen people walking the streets and everybody was was living under the same circumstances. Like, you know, we were everybody was living in the same world. Right. It was the same area, the same place, you know, everybody was walking the streets, like, and when I say that walking the streets, I don't I don't I mean like normal day-to-day living on this, like if you was to see like a a small town or even a big city, you know, people walking back and forth, you know, going about their own business. But e even though it was everybody was located in the same on the same land mass, in the same world, it was they were in two different dimensions. And there was a definite division among the people, and it was because of the different realms that they were living in. It was just day-to-day living, but I can see that so prevalent within the church, too. Um, and you know, I guess that you know it's it's the invitation, come up here, yeah, that John was given.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Come up here. Yeah, come up here. You know, I just recently had a revelation about John's revelation of Jesus Christ. Um, he was on the Isle of Patmos, right? John was the only one that went to the cross with Jesus, right? So he has this very certain perspective of everything that occurred that day.

unknown 30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

But he was on the Isle of Patmos by himself, exiled, and all of a sudden he hears the words come up here. And I I really truly believe in my heart that that the Lord was giving him an upgraded revelation of what he saw on the cross. And that's how the book of Revelation was written. That the book of Revelation was actually, even though John seen everything that happened on the cross of Jesus, that to Jesus, yeah, that the book of Revelation was written from the perspective after John was given the invitation to come up here and align everything that he witnessed with what God was doing.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

I agree with that, and that makes me think I I don't know where it is because I'm still working on um Scott's um, you know, his his mandate of us learning our Bible and where things are. But that reminds me so much of I believe it it was Ezekiel, yeah it was, um, of him being called up and and he said, you know, I saw the Lord high and lifted up. And when we were at the um at the reunion last year, they were singing that song by Jeremy Camp. I don't know, Jeremy Riddle. Jimmy Riddle. Yeah. And it's, you know, I I saw the Lord. Is that Jeremy Riddle? I saw the Lord on the throne, exalted high, and the train of his robe filled the temple.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

No, I don't think that was Jeremy Riddle.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

I can't remember who it was, but but anyway, as they were singing that, uh, that that vision that Ezekiel had came back and I was like, I always, when I would see, you know, when I would read Ezekiel, I was I I loved Ezekiel because

The Cross, The Throne, And Glory

SPEAKER_00 32:05

I would see all these visions of heaven and and the throne and all this, and and in that moment in worship with the Lord, I realized that that his throne was his cross. And and I'm sitting there looking, like I have like like I'm you know looking up at the crucifixion of Jesus in the in you know in my mind's eye, and I'm seeing all the suffering, and and they're and they're talking about him being high and lifted up above you know the the earth, and I'm like, oh my god, everything in the Bible, all of it is a picture of the crucifixion, of the life, the death, and the resurrection of Jesus. And I and whenever it's talking about him being exalted, it's the cross.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Yeah, yeah. And I'd add to that that we from from that perspective, it's we we we re we see the cross and the the throne is the cross, right? But it needs to be reversed because it's actually the Lord is on the throne in heaven, right? And the cross was just a shadow of how yes, and and how it manifested here on the earth in order for us to be able to behold him on the throne. Well, and so the throne is actually more real than even than the cross, yes, because it's a go go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

No, like that, no, that yes, yes, because he is he is resurrected seated at the right hand of the father. I think the reason he showed that to me is that is his glory. Yes, that like that is his glory, and we and you know it talks about there being these thrones in heaven that these these 24 elders, you know, are sitting on, and it's crosses, like like that's why they got there is because they endured the cross set before them, like they endured it as as well, and so that cross is their throne. Yes, yes, and so we're trying to save people from their throne, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

That's pretty good. I had no idea that this was gonna go this way today. No, but no, that that's so good. Like, you know, we there's there's no way to actually live the Christ's life without the cross.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Right, right, and gosh, haven't we tried? I think that I think I think the life of a Christian without the cross um is narcissism. Breeds breeds that spirit of of give me.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Yeah, yeah. I'll never forget I was listening to um to Brad and Randy, and I don't even know where they were speaking, what I I I don't know. I I don't know. I just remember what stood out to me. They were talking about the glory of God, and there was such a revelation that hit me as they were talking that if we want to talk about, if we if we want to talk about the glory of God and see the glory of God in our own life, it only comes through a cross. It it comes through a cross. And like that is like if it came to Jesus through a cross. It it's getting it comes through uh to us through a cross.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

So anyway, no, that that's good. I remember the Lord telling me one time, you know, when I was concerned about my kids, um, and I was like, Lord, there's so much darkness here, you know, and and he said, Don't you know? My glory shines brightest in darkness. And I was like, Oh man, that's so good. Well, and then what a month later he was diagnosed with cancer, yeah, and I was like, Oh, oh my god, you know, and but like you you see how like I got to see the Lord through through like in my son through that process, and I was just like, I mean, again, I feel like I feel like this is we I come undone, I come undone. Like it's coming to the end of yourself again and again and again when you see the glory of the Lord, there's there's like there's no other there's there's no other expression than to come undone, you know, and it's and like after seeing that, like I I've seen it through all these other hard things that I've gone through where you think like you're going through the worst possible thing that you can imagine, and and his glory is there, yeah. And you're just like, why would you walk with me here? You know, and he's like, Well, I said I'd never leave you. But like you don't you don't know where he's willing to go with you until you go there, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Right, and then it's uh it's all about him anyway, yeah. Everything is all about him anyway, yeah. And you know, I and I think that this invitation that you know I'm talking about it requires intimacy. Oh yeah, and I think that that's a lot of I let me

What Intimacy With God Looks Like

SPEAKER_02 37:30

rephrase what I was getting ready to say. I don't know a lot of that a lot of the church has that intimate relationship with the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

I'm glad that you said that because what I was about to ask you is okay, what does that look like? What does intimacy actually look like in the life of a follower?

SPEAKER_02 37:58

And I I think that from from from my perspective, what I have seen you know, we we go to a lot of different places. Um so you know this is I'm not saying that I'm just saying the little bit that I have seen and it's proven is time and time and time again. There are structures and traditions, I heard idols. Yeah. And we we think that that these things, you know, three three three worship songs and then a transition, or um, you know, a sun Sunday morning, Wednesday evening, Sunday night service, and or even even if even if get to even to get more personal, I get up every morning and I I read my Bible for at least an hour and I pray for 30 minutes and I'm then I'm out the door, you know, all of those things in and of themselves are not bad.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Right it's not but it's also it could it could it could also be um very gosh Gina, I don't even know the word I'd want to say um give you a form of of relationship and not really know the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

So what what I was what I heard when you were saying that was it's like when a husband and wife um schedule their intimate moments. And so it's like oh Tuesday at 3 p.m. And it like it takes away the the true intimacy and it becomes just a physical act that you're doing out of duty, out of out of necessity, out of desire to, you know, make sure that this is a healthy relationship, but it's not true connection. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

You know, I one of the there was there was something that it was a it was a quote and I can't remember I I can't remember who quoted it, but let me see if I can get it right. It it was so it it was so um profound to me whenever I first read it and I thought, oh my gosh, that's it. But it was um let's see, um to know someone and not love them. What was it? I can't remember. It was to know someone and not to love them was something, to love someone and not know them was is superficial at best. But to know all there is to know about someone and love them is just like God.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Oh there's there's a song and it says the one who knows me most is the one who loves me best.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

And and and that's that is I think that is the heart of the father, not only for us to know him, but also to be known by him. And in order to do that, in order to truly be vulnerable with the Lord, there has to be a certain self-awareness of where we are. Gosh, yes, yes. And I'm not talking about being like self-centered and self-consumed, right? Because whenever whenever we're what do you call it, self, whenever we're self-focused, when we're self-focused, we become very selfish. And it's all about us. Yeah. But when we become self-aware, it's more about how does my words and my actions affect those around me.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

What what is what is the ripple effect? What kind of ripple effect am I having here? And and so there in regards to to the Lord, it's more about how well do I really know an infinite omnipotent God in my own life or in the lives of those around me. Can I honestly look at any given point in time and say that's the Lord and that's not? Because if we can't, yeah, then we need to go like there's an aspect of him that we have yet to know. Yes, and it's always gonna be that way. Don't get me wrong, it's always gonna be that way. So there's a pursuit that needs to happen, but I see very few in that pursuit. They like it's it's been relegated to this is enough. And this this is this, I'm I'm like I'm good here. Yeah, I'm good right here. And will the Lord bless that? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, he'll bless it. He blessed the the tribes of Israel that wanted to stay on the wrong side of the Jordan and didn't want to cross over into the promised land. Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Well, and he blessed. Ishmael.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

He blessed Ishmael. Absolutely. He will bless it. I don't want to be, I I don't, I want the perfect will of the Lord. Yeah. Not just for my life, but I want the perfect will of the Lord in that I want to know what He wants me to know about Him personally. I want to I want to know Him. He there's and listen I'm not perfect. I'm not perfect in this. I don't know that any of us are. And but I can I can honestly say that I am constantly scanning throughout my day. Yeah to catch him.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Yes. I don't want yeah, I want to s I want to catch him.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Yes. To catch him.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

And to know him. Mm-hmm. And also to be known by him. I was gonna say, and I want him to catch me. To be known by him. You know, because in that and and that's where you know being self-aware really comes in because we have to know what we're withholding. Exactly. And we're not always aware, and and you know, for the for the places that we are aware what we're withholding, you know, absolutely repentance can come quickly.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

But when repentance comes quickly, and then we hand those things over and we surrender ourselves, and I'm not talking about things as as you know, things outside of our life. I mean our like who we are, yes, who we are internally, yeah, yeah. Then that uncovers other areas that we're withholding, and then the Lord actually begins to point those things out, and and there's a self-awareness that comes, and with that it it even it even he begins to show us we're we're withholding ourselves from others because you can't love God and not love his people. That's the truth, you can't have the head and not the body. No, and Christ, Jesus is the head of the body, and if you want Jesus, you have to love his body.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

He says, You have to consume my whole flesh. That's his body. You have to partake of all of it.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Yeah, and so you know he you know, going back to seeing things the way he sees them, um, I'll never forget, like years ago, I was having for for lack of a better term, a dream. It was it wasn't really a dream, but it was. But I'm in I'm I hear myself telling the Lord, I just want to love you more. I just want to love you more, Lord. I just want to love you more. And I heard a response, and he said, Love my people. And as soon as I heard that, I woke up. It shocked me, it shocked me awake. You know my first thought. My first thought was, Oh, well, well, I've I've got that. I I do that. Check.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

And it check's done.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

And it was at that point that and I'm still there. Yeah, I'm still there. Now, when I say I I had this dream probably back in either 2015 or 2016. And from that point forward, he has shown me all of the ways that I have fallen short in loving his people.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

I think that's why he told that to Peter three times.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Yes. Well, and I recognized it was maybe a year after, because this this is something that I've carried with me ever since it happened.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

Um, but it was maybe about a year, maybe two years after I had the dream that, or or maybe maybe it wasn't that long. I know it was a little bit, I know it was a while, but anyway, it dawned on me one day, oh my gosh, that was that was the Lord's conversation with Peter.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

I'm Peter. Well, and and Peter, Peter's the one that became, you know, the the head of the church, for lack of a better word. And so, and so it was so important that he got that.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Do you love me? Feed my sheep, you know, do you love me? Like, and I think that the reason that he kept he said the do you love me part is is because he's gonna be tempted to not want to feed the sheep. He's gonna be tempted to not want to to you know walk with these crazy people that were coming, but that that's why he had to bring the focus back to, but do you love me? Because hit my heart's for them. And so you can't love me and not love what I love. So good.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

That was also the restoration of Peter from his denial of the Lord. Of the three times.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

Yeah. And I think that that we can't we can't deny the Lord and not deny his people.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

That's the that'll yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

And we can't love the Lord and not love his people.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Yep. Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

And we can't we like it it's so there is this there is this reflection of how we treat people is how we treat the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Yeah. And we have missed that.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Oh yeah.

unknown 49:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Yeah. Yeah. The repentance is is very good.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

Yeah. But you know, that and the flip side of that, the flip side of that is what we opened up with about enabling. Because there's so many of us out there, I used to be one of them, who was an enabler, and confuse that with the love of the Lord. Right. And I think what what has what really helped me understand that you can't you can't pity someone. You can't you can't allow you can't comfort someone in the midst of allowing them to stay where they are. What really brought me out of all that, first and foremost, was the was the Lord actually showing me what I was doing. But also the him telling me that the ultimate goal of love is overcoming in order to save your own soul. And no one is a victim.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Well, and no one can do it for you. That'd be like, you know, the the father didn't go into the pig pan with the pig pan with the son. Right. He waited. Right.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Right. And so there's a there's a lot of there's a lot of um a lot of victim mentality that I'm and misplaced mercy. Yeah. Um unsanctified mercy.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

The only time we fall victim to misplaced mercy is whenever we're still entertaining a victim mentality too.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, Jesus, Jesus wasn't Jesus and you know, I've heard I've I've I've had people come at me with the with the um argument, yeah, but there are victims, you know, of this and that and everything. And I'm not saying that you can't be a victim of injustice at some that you have you that someone has never experienced being a victim of some type of injustice. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying that once that is over and done with, to continually relive that over and over and over and the trauma that that that that like instills in a soul to remain at this low place and not to recognize that that is over and done with, and that there is there is restoration, there is forgiveness, there is mercy, and there is there is redemption. Like it it really does nullify everything that the cross stands for.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

And so there's a difference between having a victim mentality and actually experiencing a you know a moment or you know, even even a season of life to where you've been a victim of certain things. However, it doesn't that doesn't it that's why we're called to renew our mind.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

Yeah, it's like the victim mentality just keeps like you said, just keeps replaying it over and over and over again, and and they keep it keeps dragging you back to that same place and that same moment and and you can't move forward.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Yeah, and it's not who you are.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Right. It it's not what happened to you is not who you are.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

Yeah, it's not who you are. Yeah. Um we're sons and we're daughters. And you know, it just I I keep going I in in my own personal life I keep going back to what if Jesus thought that? I mean, who has a bet who who better to have who have been a victim than than the Lord?

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:05

But he was he never claimed to be a victim. As a matter of fact, he even he even looked at those who were getting ready to crucify him and he says, I lay m nobody takes my life from me. I lay it down. Yep. And so anyway, I don't know how we got on all that either.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Well, and you know, again, it just like I've got all these things in my mind, but I just remember the Lord telling me, and it because you brought this up the other day with a conversation, but the Lord telling me one time when I was like, Oh my god. Because when you're faced with what like what you just said, I'm just like, I'm not ready to die, you know? Because I mean it w it it shows you, it makes you look at it. And I I just remember telling the Lord, Well, I don't I don't want to die. And the Lord said, Well, you're gonna die anyway, so you might as well just die today. And I was like, Oh, he's serious. I mean, this like this was years ago, but I'm like, Oh, we we really do have to die daily. Because like that that thing to save yourself, you know. Yeah, well, like you're thinking you're saving yourself, but what you're actually doing is is you're actually feeding your flesh and all of this kind of stuff. But that that, you know, we think of that, like if somebody had a gun, you know, and was like, deny Jesus, you know, that then you would be like, No, and then you would die. No, it's it's you're denying him daily when you're not obeying his his his voice, when you're not moving in his spirit, when you're not, you know, being obedient to the things that he's called you to. And so if you're not willing to die there, you're not gonna die there either.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Right. I think uh, you know, going back to intimacy and the thought of what what what you just said

Mammon, Busyness, And Distraction

SPEAKER_02 56:10

when we moved to Canada, I was made aware, I think it was the f you know, I never lived outside of the country right until we went moved to Canada. We moved there after being there for a little while. I come to the to the understanding of how much the spirit of mammon has a hold of America.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

Yeah. So I like I haven't been outside the country, so I'm interested. Um, I mean because that is different.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

Oh my lord, yeah. It I mean what really struck me was how busy we are here. We're busy thinking that our we have to have our kids in every every extracurricular activity. We're busy in thinking that we have to um work however many hours in order to supply however much in order to have however much in, you know, we're we're even busy inside the church thinking that we have to do all of these different programs and and classes and you know all this stuff, all this stuff, and that it really does um it it really does hinder us from that personal intimate relationship with the Lord. But whenever we can set aside all these things and really tap into relationship, and that's another thing too, like I think there's such a lack of understanding of relationship with the Lord because there's such a lack of understanding relationship with each other. Yeah, there's I can't remember, I think it's I think it's in Thessalonians somewhere somewhere in there where it says first the natural, then the spiritual. Because there's something about viewing it with our own eyes that gives us and helps us to understand this and comprehend the spiritual a little bit more. Um now I'm not talking about revelation, right? Right, but I am talking about you know being able to at least grasp it. And there's such a lack of relationship now with in with you know within society because everybody is just so busy.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Well, and distracted. And just yes, like even with the phones, like I have been I f I feel like the Lord's really been speaking to me about social media, about how how it's just given people again this this false relationship um type of of narrative to where they believe that they're connected to a body, they believe that they can go online and view services and it's just as good as being there and all this and and it's not real. Right. Not that not that he can't use things, but like at the same time, like it that can never take the place of personal relationship. Right. And so many are together. I mean, you see it, you know, I've I've I've been in the service industry, you know, and and you see it with people eating dinner, looking down at tablets and at phones. And they're together in proximity, but they're not together in spirit, right? And it's devastating. Right.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

Right. So uh you know, there's just anyway, the you know, in the even the Lord said, you can't serve God and mammon. Right. You can't serve both. And so I had this, I like I didn't I never realized this until I moved out of the country. Because you know, and I'm not saying that I mean, you know, Canada's got their own thing going on, but there were the way that things were structured up there, there was so much time for relationship. Uh it was I I can say that while we were there, you know, it was it was a more it it felt more social more of a socialist government to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

Right. Um that was about 10 years ago, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

It was 20 2013 to 2015 when we were there. Yeah. But also like it was it was very rare that you would see a household that owned two cars. Wow. And it was very common for people not to own a car at all. They had a social, you know, a social transit system with a bus and everything, and I mean everywhere. The buses went everywhere, and this was rural, um, you know, everywhere. But it was um, and I'm not saying that that is like a the like an a goal for society. I don't I'm by far am I saying that, right? But I am saying that the contrast of there versus here, I was able to really recognize like, oh my gosh, that like there is a spirit of mammon that especially from the area that I was in, you know? And then the more I've traveled, the more I recognize, yeah, it's here too. Oh yeah, it's here too. Right, it's here too. So, and you know, I'm not speaking against prosperity at all because I believe that, but at what point does prosperity become a prison whenever that's all that you're after?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

Yes. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

I mean, what is true prosperity? True prosperity is the Lord and your people.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

And you know, we only have so much time here on this earth. And you and and the clo I, you know, I I do want to put this out there too. The proximity that we have with the Lord here, and when I say proximity, I mean the closeness in our hearts, how close we draw toward the Lord here and now determines how close we get to Him in heaven. That's why, you know, outer darkness is not hell, y'all. Outer darkness is found in heaven, and that's where people are gnashing their teeth. And I don't want to be out there. I I want to be as close to the Lord as I can possibly get. And do I need improvement? Yes, yes, yes. But what's really easy for me is to let some things go. Let some things go in order to make sure that I've made the time and to be purposeful, to really seek the Lord, not for anything, other than to know him and to be known by him.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

That I might apprehend. Yeah, that's that's the goal.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

And you know, when I get around people who know him so much better than me, I listen, I just want to sit and listen.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

Me too.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

I don't I I I don't I just want to sit and listen, and then they'll say something and I'll get so excited, and then all this stuff will just come out, and then I'm like, shut up, shut up, they know something but Tor, just shut up, listen. But it like, you know, it's like this internal back and forth with me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

I relate to that. I think a lot of times, I don't know if you notice this, but I'll be sitting there like this, just like because I'm I'm like, I'm trying to because it it bubbles up. Yes, it bubbles up, and then and then you find this commonality, and you're like, I wanna I want you to know me and this, you know, like I wanna be known too. Like, like I understand what you're saying. I want you to know I understand because because you're so overcome in that moment that moment with the desire to be one. Yes. And so we so for anybody out there, we're not meaning to interrupt you, you know. We're just excited, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love that, yeah. I do that, like I think I've gotten better, but I I do that too.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

But but there's so that's why it's so important for us to to be not only to be together and have relationship with one another, but also to be in our own, be aware of the Lord in our own lives and who he really is and what he's really doing, and not assume, but know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

Not assume, but really know. And so that we can take that and and and not only be transformed by what we see, because that's what happens. Transformation happens when you can actually see the Lord. That's when transformation happens, whether you're seeing him in scripture, or you're seeing him in your life, or you're seeing him in nature, or you're seeing him in one another, that's where transformation really begins to happen in our own hearts. But to bring that together in our relationships and share that with one another so that we all come to the understanding the Lord in a greater and deeper way.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

That's Ephesians.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

That's Ephesians.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

We're gonna

Closing Thoughts And Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

get there. I believe it. I believe it too. I believe it. Well, I think this is a good time. time to wrap up. Thank you for for coming on here and and just releasing all of that to to everyone. And um hopefully we can do it again sometime.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:11

Thanks guys. Thank you. Thanks for listening.